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Tagged: AMX-RC10, French Tanks, HIMARS missiles, M1 Abrams, Macron, NATO, Starstreak missiles, Ukraine War, West Coast Midnight Run Forums
- This topic has 17 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by
Mitch Berkson.
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January 14, 2023 at 12:30 PM #11155
Pierre Maertin
NATO Tanks Sent To Ukraine – New Chapter By Pierre Maertin
The newswires are screaming headlines, France announced it would commit an unspecified number of tanks to Ukraine, not only reversing its policy of neutrality vis-a-vis the increasingly vociferous war heating up the border along the former Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) but becoming the first Western nation and member of NATO to commit battle tanks ahead of the United States, the UK, and Germany who soon followed suit. It is interesting to note that although Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed the Crimea, it was until 2018 that Ukraine formally abandoned its membership in the CIS.
Remarkably Macron’s decision to send the AMX-RC10 “wheeled” tanks to the Ukraine appear to have caught his allies with their proverbial pants down who immediately, within hours, scrambled to join voices in unison declaring their intent to send American Bradley armored vehicles, Germany’s feared Leopard 2 tracked tanks and Britain’s Challenger 2 main battle tanks.
All of this coincided with news of the Kremlin’s decision to mobilize a new batch of 500,000 Russian infantry units to shore up a protracted war with their neighbor, which by all accounts from Western media sources appears to be leaning into the victory lane of the embattled Ukrainians. Recent developments show the Ukrainians are now on a winning streak to regain lost territories overrun by the Russians during the initial phase of the war. But it is far too early to tell who will come out on top given that this war is being waged on Russia’s front doors and by all accounts the Kremlin appears to have gone soft by holding back their deployment of cutting edge hardware. The same could be said about NATO, both sides of the conflict appear to have shown unusual restraint, perhaps out of fear that newest weapons systems could fall into the hands of the enemies and are being reserved for a more direct NATO-Russia conflict or a definitive global war.
France’s AMX-RC10 are far from being that country’s most lethal ground battlers and are viewed by some as nothing more than armored vehicles equipped with a 105 mm canon, which puts them on a footing with the big tanks. Most of the modern-day tracked tanks are equipped with 100 mm to 120 mm canons but the AMX tanks being on wheels can reach speeds of up to 50 mph making them very fast compared to heavier tanks on tracks. And the United States much vaunted Abrams M1 tanks are being held back while only Bradley armored vehicles with a high speed 25 mm Bushmaster cannons are on the dispatch board for Ukraine. Bradleys are famed for being “tank killers” in Iraq against much older Soviet-generation tanks but the Pentagon classifies them as primarily scouting vehicles with lethal power and armor.
The other problem with this unfolding scenario is that the Ukrainian war is turning slowly into an all-out NATO effort against Russia, sidestepping completely the notion of neutrality which NATO espoused at the start of the war, since Ukraine was not a NATO member and this was considered a Russian Ukrainian war that does not permit NATO to invoke Article 5 which says that any attack on a NATO member in Europe or North America “shall be considered an attack against them all.” Russia’s slow progress in Ukraine was initially viewed as primarily Ukrainian fighting skills and endurance matched with small donations of light assault rifles and a small trickle of pan European and worldwide fighters joining in under the banner of a “French Foreign Legion” albeit a Ukrainian Foreign Legion.
However in the most recent months, far bigger and heavier weapons systems have made their way to the war front including surface-to-surface HIMARS missile batteries, shoulder-fired Mach 3 Starstreak missiles (fastest guns from the West), jet fighters (on the board but held back by the US) and Patriot missiles batteries – all of which require ammunition supplies, maintenance parts and training as well as Ukrainian ability to operate these systems. The vast majority of the Ukrainian military forces are ill-equipped and unfamiliar with these weapons systems, another reason cutting edge systems are not being sent to them but older generation technology is considered easier for them to use and operate on the battlefield.
All of these developments point to a dangerous escalation of the war into an all-out unrestrained nuclear battlefield. Moscow does not need an excuse at this point not to deploy small yield atomic bombs which will “soften up” the enemy and cut their losses a la Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The Russians can always justify their nuclear weapons use as already established by their American foes and the USA know full well this option is on the table. To make things worse, the war has closely drawn in Poland into the conflict and at some point Russia may call NATO’s bluff and use mid-range nukes in taking the Ukraine and Poland completely off the board. Should this happen, what exactly will be NATO’s response? Launch an all-out nuclear war with Russia? The response would burn the entire planet to ashes, and who exactly would come out on top?
This entire war and the coalition of Ukraine is hanging by a thread and only exists because Russia continues to show restraint. Once Russia plays the nuclear card, there is nothing for NATO to do except shut up and put up with their losses and ambitions to bring nukes and military bases on Russia’s borders inside of Poland, Finland and Ukraine. Unfortunately the war is far from over, should never been allowed to go the extra mile and it is primed like a powder keg for a global nuclear showdown. Macron should never have offered the tanks and his allies should not have caved in like a deck of dominoes.
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January 14, 2023 at 5:31 PM #11179
Harry Biggins
ParticipantSeems as if the AMX-RC10 are designed for scouting the terrain and fast retreats. Leave it to the French to purposely design something with “locating the enemy — and beating a hasty retreat” as part of its battle plan
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January 20, 2023 at 11:50 PM #11218
Jon Seavers
ParticipantThese vehicles would work in Ukraine’s favor and type of war, hit and run
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January 14, 2023 at 5:42 PM #11181
Charles Drucker
ParticipantIf France is giving it away, it must not work well. 😂
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January 14, 2023 at 10:26 PM #11183
LeonPickering
ParticipantThe French have lost every conflict since waterloo. They fight poorly and surrender readily.
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January 15, 2023 at 10:34 PM #11201
Jeff Marvel
ParticipantLeon no insult meant to someone with your experience and age however here is the USA track record from the Canadian draft dodgers
Vietnam War
The Korean War
The Afghanistan War Theater
go back to snacking on Frito LaidsThe only wars the US has recently won with decisiveness are the Falklands War and the Grenada Invasion. The Persian Gulf campaigns aren’t war, we are not waging war when we toppled Hussein’s regime, they are military occupation of a strategic region sugar-coated as long term or permanent “peace keeping presence”
But sometimes you gotta go on without spilling blood and we Canadians are famous for that – vampires are
only on Buffy and vamps are chicks with bikinis! 😉
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January 20, 2023 at 11:34 PM #11214
Jon Seavers
Participant@West Coast Midnight Run – five days after your piece was published, the Russian mouthpiece to NATO basically echoed your sentiments to the assembly who was fully resolved on sending a multinational consortium of tanks to Ukraine, are you working for the Kremlin? I dont remember seeing any Moscow correspondant bureau listed with your publication.
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January 21, 2023 at 12:13 AM #11219
Archer Gerry
Participant“FOR SALE FRENCH ARMY RIFLE NEVER FIRED DROPPED ONCE”, is how my daddy used to sum it up about their fighting spirit! Hell they have this very slogan as a sticker on sale at eBay! https://www.ebay.com/itm/223575230970
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January 21, 2023 at 7:39 PM #11223
Darrin Rodriguez
Participanthuhh so you are the shoot first trigger happy and ask questions later kind of muscle??? definitely an improvement on the old battle axe from the days of the Crusades. Glad to know you used that fancy bow and arrow to do your thinking for you, presumably not an antique but a modern decision making tool? did you borrow yours from Justin Hartley, Jeremy Renner or Stephen Amell?
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January 29, 2023 at 6:34 PM #11331
William Pennoski
ParticipantThat’s one of the most common bumper stickers in Miami, amongst the non-Cuban neighborhoods! 😂
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January 21, 2023 at 7:28 PM #11221
Darrin Rodriguez
Participantthe obvious always seems to be ignored by these esteemed columnists in our USA. Mr. Maertin, Germany is being held up as the holdout in sending main battle tanks, the Leopard 2 but why are the United States and France only sending armored vehicles (AMX and Bradleys)?!!!! Both France and the USA have main battle tanks in their ranks. The USA does not want to send its latest Abrams M1 tanks but they have been sold to many foreign countries including the Middle East’s Egypt and Saudi Arabia. SURELY THE USA HAS OLDER GENERATION BATTLE TANKS THAN THE M1 ABRAMS, if technology theft is the issue or jet fuel (some CNN-clone media reported M1 Abrams run on jet fuel) or the Ukrainian Army lack of skill to use and maintain the M1s. The USA should have a huge stockpile of older main battle tanks before the introduction of the M1, so why is the USA holding out??? Germany says it is not sending its Leopards because its allies are not either, France and the USA. The UK is sending a small number of its battle tanks. Seems to me NATO wants to look like it is helping but is doing its best to sit on its hands while telling the world that Germany (this round’s scapegoat) is the culprit in stalling an effective aid package to face off against Russia. Me I am leaning towards the opinion that NATO has already lost the battle for Ukraine but does not mind turning the country into another Russian Vietnam – make them bleed slow.
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January 23, 2023 at 10:45 PM #11224
Anonymous
it would seem that Germany is very hesitant to bite whenever a plan is presented by the “allies” especially where the USA, Britain and France are concerned.
Ja way back the French created the special German welcome trail or gate, The Maginot Line, where the French marked up the border for The Germans to walk into canons ready to blast them to bits – Kommen sie hier herr Günter, hier, hier, kommen sie hier!!!! The French promised croissants and delights, unfortunately Günter, Olaf and company never took the bait … and Germany has been hesitant ever since to bite whenever its allies invited it to a partayyyy! Those German Leopard tanks are going to the Ukraine courtesy of Poland with or without Berlin’s re-export permits, says Poland’s foreign minister. I just hope German special forces are not sent into Poland to disassemble or blow up their German-made tanks for unauthorized delivery.
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January 29, 2023 at 6:34 PM #11332
William Pennoski
Participantdont get it really, are the French frogs? everyone calls them frogs but someone told me the other day their national symbol is the Blue Rooster – so hahahaha are they frogs or are they chicken? which ones are the French? 😂😆
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January 30, 2023 at 10:31 PM #11336
Devon Michaels
Participantnewsflash – several news reports including the UK’s Independent are reporting a US general who has informed Reuters that the UK military is no longer considered by the USA as a top-tier fighting force like the USA, China, Russia and France. The UK has dropped in US ratings to second tier along with Italy and Germany.
In other news, lots of battle tanks are headed to Ukraine along with long range missile launchers and possibly fighter jets. The USA is refusing to allow F-16 fighter jets in the hands of the Ukrainians while France has not ruled out the possibility of sending them their own fighter jets – but a decision has not been reached by Macron and his allies in the EU on this issue. Ewwwwwwwwwwwww! 👎
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January 31, 2023 at 9:23 PM #11338
Jeff Marvel
ParticipantI just read a piece from author Chris Hedges in Salon magazine titled “Don’t believe the hype: Ukraine is rapidly becoming another war gone wrong” I dont necessarily subscribe to his anti American hysteria or his conclusions but his piece is worth a read. I am gonna quote some interesting comments he makes in a very lengthy detailed article which basically touts the war as another indication of the rapid decline of the USA:
“The near-hysterical calls to support Ukraine as a bulwark of liberty and democracy by the mandarins in Washington are a response to the palpable rot and decline of the U.S. empire. America’s global authority has been decimated by well-publicized war crimes, torture, economic decline, social disintegration … The coups, political assassinations, election fraud, black propaganda, blackmail, kidnapping, brutal counter-insurgency campaigns, U.S. sanctioned massacres, torture in global black sites, proxy wars and military interventions carried out by the United States around the globe since the end of World War II have never resulted in the establishment of a democratic government. Instead, these interventions have led to over 20 million killed and spawned a global revulsion for U.S. imperialism. “
There is a lot more in his piece and you should read it for yourself, but I thought you might better appreciate his perspective if you looked at an excerpt that contrasts what all of these posters are drooling on and on about. I am pretty sure most Americans dismiss him as a radical leftist without a clue paid for to create a Neo style Matrix trap – gather around all ye like minded dopes and trolls.
Gone is the imperative that DEBATE AND DISAGREEMENT ARE THE HALLMARKS OF A THINKING, FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY! I am convinced we (foreigners yiikes I am Canadian) are observing these days America at the precipice in tolerance for self-examination. The USA appears to many parts of the world as a country that can no longer tolerate disagreement in its ranks, its institutions spin a lot of charades to convince itself and the world that it is still has this capacity, in reality it does not. Do not be misled by the inordinate amount of yak and noise parading as actionable self-examination; it is wallpaper and smoke and mirrors designed to distract and lull those who question what they see and hear into believing the system is still hot tootin like it always has.
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February 23, 2023 at 1:46 PM #11752
Lennie Deakens
ParticipantFrom the looks of it Russia has chickened out a la Frenchie from its Ukraine offensive. Wooohooooo!
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March 7, 2023 at 4:48 PM #12106
Spidey Gamma
Participantthere is nuthin like peace and quiet at home #UkraineRussiaWar️ is it time for a nap??? 😪 😫💤 💤 💤 🛌
@elonmusk @cnn @OwnerFacebook @NewsHour @cnnbrk @latimes @nytimes @etnow @EW @BuzzFeed @mashable @TheSun @Ukraine @DailyMailUK @LeParisien_75 @france24 @AlJazeeraWorld @RT_com
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May 15, 2023 at 11:29 PM #12978
Mitch Berkson
Participantthere are persistent rumors France intends to send over 40 Mirage 2000 jet fighters to Ukraine. 1) is this solely a French policy move or in agreement with the EU council? France says it examines on a case by case basis requests from Ukraine but is France in consultation with the EU on this request? This is A HUGE ESCALATION from sending a small number of armored vehicles. Mirage 2000s are older era but they share basically the same platform as the advanced, seriously lethal Rafales, and represent a huge upgrade in military power for the Ukraine. It has not happened yet but if France sends them through, will Russia keep its finger off the nukes button? NATO and the EU have done everything but set foot in Ukraine, with 40 Mirages joining the fray, its basically all but open warfare between Russia and the West. What if China countermoves this new escalation? THIS IS NOT A SMALL DEAL BUT THE US PRESS IS KEEPING IT LOW PROFILE FOR NOW!!!!!!
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